WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 12, 2021

Listener comments!
	5:59pm ARB: I hope we get to hear all the plus sides of head transplants as well, for a balanced perspective.
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Well, Ken, I hope that there's no Big Reveal at the end of episode about what was really going on with the horn removal. But the Techgin is poured. Cheers, Techyon Drives! Let's doff our heads to Staysh for filling in ...
	6:01pm dale: SING THE THEME SONG KEN.
	6:02pm listener james from westwood: Hah, perfect graphic!
	🤖 6:02pm tim from champaign (now washington): Oh no! It just occurred to me that Staysh transplanted his head on Mark Hurst's body.
	6:02pm listener james from westwood: (And one of the better MST3K episodes!)
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Sound clips from How To Get A Head In Advertising please.
	6:02pm David in London: Evening Technoids. Station Manager Ken at the controls!
	🤖 6:03pm Bas NL: SM Ken! All, keep your heads on!
	6:03pm nathan: i want a follow-up Fuzzy Glove Hour episode where ken's head gets grafted onto andy
	🤖 6:04pm Ken From Hyde Park: Oh dear. We might get the origin story of the screaming goats tonight.
	6:04pm Brandy Schillace Author: The whole head transplant thing is kind of complicated... :)
	6:04pm teod: del.icio.us represent
	6:05pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: Oh, that video. Don't watch. Or do. I'm not the boss of you.
	6:05pm listener james from westwood: That video was projected on the wall during one of the Record Fairs. It was a hell of a thing staffing the volunteer/WFMU table across from that for a shift.
	🤖 6:05pm Handy Haversack: The real trigger warning should be YouTube links on Techtonic!
	6:05pm David in London: I’ve been working in the Kremlin with a two-headed dog, as Roky used to sing.
	6:06pm Brandy Schillace Author: Listening to myself is always...interesting
	6:06pm nathan: "head-on"
	6:06pm Glistener MW: “I wanted to address HEAD on...”
	6:06pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: LOL David!
	6:06pm Brandy Schillace Author: It's hard to get your head around it, too, just saying
	6:06pm Amy: Would live to listen but are there cat experiments involved? Couldn’t, in that case.
	6:07pm Brandy Schillace Author: No cats!
	6:07pm slugluv1313: greetings, SM Ken, everyone! thanks for the trigger warning -- yeah, i am one of those "crazy animal rights extremists" -- so i am always always ALWAYS wishing that these "scientists" would just experiment on each other, and leave the other species alone
	6:07pm -Ken: No cats involved in tonight's programme, Amdy - only mice, dogs and monkeys. And humans
	6:07pm Glistener MW: “Re-weird” — great word. <3
	6:07pm Paul b: Are you telling me that Rocky Erickson song (two-headed dog) was based on a real story?
	6:08pm -Ken: Welcome Brandy! Im so glad you could make it onto the chat tonight,
	6:08pm Brandy Schillace Author: Re-weirding is my brand, I think
	6:08pm Amy: Would’ve given my cat a kidney back in the day, many cats ago.
	6:08pm -Ken: Paul B, it would appear that way.. when was Rocky's Two Headed Dog recorded?
	6:09pm dale: any talk of ray milland's head on rosy greer's body?
	6:09pm melinda: Hi everyone!
	🤖 6:09pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening, WFMU land!
	6:09pm G: "Ethical concerns? We don't need no stinkin' ethical concerns!!!"
	🤖 6:09pm tim from champaign (now washington): Ken - All I ask is that you play Richard Hell's "The Boy With The Replacible HEad".
	🤖 6:09pm DjLorraine: Interesting 🤔
	6:10pm Glistener MW: Re-weirding is what I have to do immediately after stumbling into a suburban mall on some rare occasion.
	6:10pm dale: how about just dead inside. like emotionally....
	6:10pm listener james from westwood: The re-weirding way.
	6:11pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: Two Headed Dog: I believe it was recorded around '74, when Roky formed '...and the Aliens'
	6:11pm listener james from westwood: @dale I don't think that stands out as much since the past year!
	6:11pm Brandy Schillace Author: Those questions about life and death--that is really what intrigued me. Tech changed what we meant by alive and dead. (We need t-shirts that say the Re-Weirding Way)
	6:11pm khd: "well i'm not gonna wait for someone to die" lol - i want that person for my doctor
	6:11pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: The Cramps had a song Two-Headed Sex Change, because of course they did.
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: What is to be cured by a head transplant?
	6:12pm -Ken: Brandy, is the 3 minute video of the two-headed dog video that I found on youtube just a short excerpt of the film that was released in 1958? How long was the footage they leaked?
	6:12pm khd: i want a doctor willing to kill someone to save my life
	🤖 6:12pm Handy Haversack: Seems extreme for goiters, Bas.
	6:12pm G: @Bas: Annoying Personality Syndrome
	6:13pm Brandy Schillace Author: There was a longer one, which I managed to find some clips of on a different documentary -- so it much have been longer than the clip online. I have not seen the whole thing.
	6:14pm Brandy Schillace Author: I should mention that there were several two-headed dogs. We know about 9 but there were others.
	6:14pm -Ken: How exactly did the Soviets get that film to the west? Did they give a sixteen mm film to a diplomat or something?
	6:14pm slugluv1313: @dale -- right? or, John Randolph transformed into Rock Hudson in "Seconds"? or gosh, even "Human Centipede" :)
	🤖 6:14pm Bas NL: He, he.. My head drifted off.. The Cure had 'Head On The Door'..
	6:15pm Brandy Schillace Author: It's a good question; I suggest in the book that it was something the Soviets wanted to release, to goad the US.
	6:15pm dale: some russian defector ended up with a distended colon ken.
	🤖 6:15pm Handy Haversack: Poor Bulgakov.
	6:15pm iiibeat: This topic has come up recently in a film called The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and also a fairy tale called Tatterhood.
	🤖 6:16pm Folsom: No "Man with two heads" pics?
	6:16pm Brandy Schillace Author: Brains on ice, essentially
	6:16pm -Ken: Mouse trigger warning!
	🤖 6:16pm tim from champaign (now washington): Was the transplanted head able to take in water and or oxygen?
	🤖 6:16pm Folsom: Spock's Brain!
	6:16pm listener james from westwood: Some WFMU listeners ARE big pink brains floating in space!
	🤖 6:17pm Bas NL: Shivers
	🤖 6:17pm Webhamster Henry: I liked holding a brain over at the Bodies tourist trap show over at the South Street Seaport.
	6:17pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: BRAIN, BRAIN! WHAT IS BRAIN?
	6:17pm Brandy Schillace Author: pink brains are my favorite
	6:17pm -Ken: @Folsom, I wanted to keep the fictional stuff to a minimum since this is all true, amazingly enough. I sort of didnt even want to include that pic from 'the brain that wouldn't die'
	6:17pm listener james from westwood: Or maybe in metal cylinders like "The Whisperer in Darkness."
	6:17pm khd: you ever think about yr brain floating in space, mannn
	6:18pm khd: four twenty smoke weed erry day
	🤖 6:18pm Handy Haversack: Definitely if you want them to survive passage through the vacuum of space, James.
	6:18pm slugluv1313: BRAINSSSSSSSSSSS!!!
	6:18pm -Ken: @tim - the water passed right through, from a tube back into a bsin. The second head of the dog was not hooked up to the host dog's lungs I dont think. The second head was getting oxygen via the blood.
	6:18pm Brandy Schillace Author: I ended up interviewing the founder of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk, for the book.
	6:19pm iiibeat: I think the Headless Horseman used a pumpkin
	🤖 6:19pm Bas NL: Frozen souls.
	🤖 6:19pm tim from champaign (now washington): Oh wow. Thanks Ken.
	6:19pm Brandy Schillace Author: Brain death and brain life! You would be surprised how much debate there still is!
	6:19pm khd: if you like headless characters give the comic book series Nexus a read
	6:20pm iiibeat: Pineal gland. Soul is collective
	6:20pm iiibeat: DMT
	6:20pm -Ken: Brandy during the monkey brain transplants, did they detect different types of brain waves, like REM, Delta etc?
	6:21pm Brandy Schillace Author: "When are you dead enough" to harvest your organs--that is the question they were trying to answer. Technology can really usher in some questions you are not prepared for.
	6:21pm khd: rip DMX
	6:21pm iiibeat: He ain't dead yet!!
	6:22pm Brandy Schillace Author: Ken, They detected and measured three types; the one that was least active was related to sensory perception (as it would be...no eyes, no ears)
	6:22pm joe mulligan: doesn't a living will take care of the question of whether or not someone has wishes to be life supported? I guess the doctors need to have that deciding line. hopefully it doesnt vary state by state.
	6:22pm queems: oh no
	6:22pm dale: how do you separate a brain from the brain stem?
	6:23pm -Ken: Im a little late for the nonkey trigger warning but yeah
	6:23pm G: with a scalpel
	6:23pm Brandy Schillace Author: Joe, it partly has to do with the dead donor rule. You can't take an organ that supports life until declared dead (enough)
	6:23pm Travisano66: "Donor Monkey" is a strange phrase. I'm guessing the monkey didn't actually "donate' it's own head.
	6:23pm joe mulligan: thanks Brandy that makes sense.
	6:24pm Brandy Schillace Author: Ah! Travisano66, there was a larger monkey that was acting as a blood donor to the brain and head of the other monkey.
	6:24pm listener james from westwood: @Ken The various DJs talking up this program did a fine job alerting folks to the possible animal squick, so that was effective.
	6:24pm -Ken: dale, they reconnect all the plumbing and then cut the spinal cord. So the monkeys that were hooked up to the other monkeys bodys, could not control that new body at all.
	6:24pm Franco Twinkie: One of my favorite movies has always been The Brain Wouldn't Die, a real trash classic from 1963. For those who haven't seen it, it goes something like this - A doctor is on a trip to the county with his girl friend in an open convertible with no seat belts. The girl friends head comes off and is kept alive in pan in the basement. It doesn't end well. I suspect a lot of serious medical curiosity was hatched in the wake of the movie.
	🤖 6:24pm tim from champaign (now washington): If I had a monkey's brain attached to my body, I can guarantee that my IQ would double.
	6:24pm queems: this reminds me of mars attacks!
	6:24pm khd: this is gross
	6:25pm Brandy Schillace Author: James, and Ken, I promise I toned things down in the book. I had to watch the films. It was...difficult at times.
	6:25pm listener james from westwood: @Franco You know they'd have kept Reagan's brain alive if they had the tech and needed to post Hinckley.
	6:25pm David in London: If the Soviets were happy to show off their two headed dog, can you imagine the experiments they didn’t want to share? Sheesh.
	6:25pm khd: omg an incredibly quick surgeon... jesus
	6:26pm David in London: It must have cost him a fortune in Winnalot.
	6:26pm dale: i would think you would want monkey brain A to control monkey body B, then the monkey undead army. but baby steps i guess.
	6:26pm -Ken: Demikhov wpuld walk a real surgically created two headed dog down the street.. I wonder if he covered the heads with a sheet or something
	6:26pm listener james from westwood: @Brandy: No lie about the films. I've only seen the heart/lung one and that was a handful. Thanks for soldiering through them for us all!
	6:27pm khd: @david in london - probably a hell of a lot less then the US?
	🤖 6:27pm Bas NL: I just read the spinal chord contains about a million axons.. that's a lot of stitches.
	6:27pm listener james from westwood: @David in London, there's the occasional rumble about Soviet chimp-human fusions.
	6:27pm McGroovey: Less shocking a topic than it seemed at the start. Terry Gross would have asked fewer questions about two-headed dogs, and would have figured out a way to talk about sex.
	6:27pm queems: i have to respectfully bow out but this is very interesting
	6:27pm listener james from westwood: 1970!! Holy crap!
	6:28pm G: All Your Head Are Belong To Us
	6:28pm listener james from westwood: @McGroovey: Plus Gross would've interrupted every other response.
	6:29pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: One of my favorite Devo lyrics: Butchers steal doctor's tools, Sow pretty heads on dogs and mules
	6:29pm slugluv1313: @Amy -- you know how people are always donating their bodies to science, medical research, body farms, etc. once they die? i am trying to find out if there is a way that i can mandate that my dead body be used to help other species -- i am not sure if this is even possible, but i figure that humans have enough scientific research done in their name
	6:29pm Franco Twinkie: I've heard that James From Westwood. The question is, why on earth would anyone want Reagans head kept alive. Even people who are Republicans have to admit he wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box.
	6:29pm listener james from westwood: @Bas NL: That's what feels like so much of a hard stop on getting a head to control another body. How do you reattach all those?!
	6:29pm Brandy Schillace Author: The fights that happened between White and other surgeons/scientists and PETA actually ended up making for better rules about the treatment of animals. The laws now require animals to have enrichment (they can't just be monkeys in tiny cages). Lots of people are still against the experiments, though.
	🤖 6:29pm Handy Haversack: I'm sure the Star-Spangled dog would have had at least four heads.
	6:30pm listener james from westwood: @Franco: He was a useful tool, like 45, the guy you have fake a seizure to distract the cops while the rest of the thieves rob the bank.
	🤖 6:30pm Folsom: Ken, how about a pic of Ted Williams, that close enough?
	6:30pm Doug in JC: Keeping Reagan alive makes me think of the struldbrugg in Gulliver's Travels
	6:30pm -Ken: Ted Sr, or Ted Jr?
	6:31pm iiibeat: Thoughts are space too
	6:31pm nathan: @Franco, modern republicans seem to worship Reagan
	6:31pm Fredericks: Just got here. Is Ken talking about the Monkees' Head?
	6:31pm Doug in JC: Didn't the cryo company totally mess up and Ted's head thawed out?
	6:31pm Brandy Schillace Author: Once you sever the spinal cord, you can't really grow it back. They are working on this, but so far, severed spine is the end of movement below the cut.
	6:31pm khd: omg we're only half way thru!~
	6:32pm -Ken: They really have to work with the head of a person who has already learned to control a cursor and keyboard with their mind
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: And what if you cross a couple of axons.. and are axons solidly defined in function..
	6:32pm Brandy Schillace Author: BUT HE WAS!
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: My mind has arms and fingers at its disposal, and I can't even do that, Ken.
	6:33pm -Ken: @Bas, they just cut through all of those. They made no attempt to connect that level of wiring from head A to body B
	6:33pm Brandy Schillace Author: Earlier someone asked (and I forget who) what does a head transplant cure. In a way, the body transplant is kind of a life support system. The idea was keeping someone alive who would otherwise die.
	🤖 6:33pm Bas NL: Kidneys are a no-brainer in comparison.
	🤖 6:34pm chresti: So you have to keep the spinal chord attached to the brain?
	6:34pm khd: a chance to cut is a chance to cure
	🤖 6:34pm tim from champaign (now washington): Were any type of transplants performed by Nazi or Japanese doctors during WWII? I know both sets of doctors performed human vivisection experiments.
	6:34pm Brandy Schillace Author: They basically cut right through the cord at C2 and C3, so from the neck down.
	6:35pm khd: i think that's a certain psychosis with some doctor types
	6:35pm khd: and i don't mean that totally negative
	6:35pm khd: but at it's extreme you run into people like dr. gull aka jack the ripper
	6:35pm Brandy Schillace Author: Tim, I am not sure about that, but there were extensive brain experiments in the gulags in the Soviet Union.
	6:37pm David in London: The good news? A new body has become available for you. The bad news? It’s a Great Dane....
	6:37pm dano59: Not to make light of this, but I wouldn’t mind a body transplant ... aw, take my head too.
	🤖 6:37pm Handy Haversack: David, ... Hamlet?
	6:38pm joe mulligan: it's crazy how little identity an organ (other than the brain) has. meaning you can transplant any organ but the BODY has so many unique characteristics to make everything different. i.e. you can take any good kidney that will be accepted but when you're taking a body, an ethics question comes up about what kind of body etc
	6:38pm khd: haha... that sounds like something Andy would do
	6:39pm dano59: Reagan’s head is alive! I saw it on Futurama
	🤖 6:39pm Bas NL: Alas, poor Yorick.
	🤖 6:39pm tim from champaign (now washington): Thanks, Brandy.
	6:39pm slugluv1313: i guess for me, the "ethical" question is whether or not we would force whatever on a human (although here too, humans have been unwilling subjects in "research")
	6:40pm khd: just die ffs
	🤖 6:41pm Ken From Hyde Park: "Blink once to accept the terms and conditions."
	6:41pm slugluv1313: Dr. Schillace, i am really loving this discussion, and have got to read your book -- THANK YOU!!!
	6:41pm Brandy Schillace Author: The cadaver head transplant has happened. Strange, no?
	6:42pm Brandy Schillace Author: Thank you slugluv1313 :) It was a lot of fun to write--and it reads a little like...well, like an adventure
	6:42pm G: @ Ken From Hyde Park: That's about how much input we get when being forced to check-mark an electronic TOS box.
	6:43pm -Ken: The books a really great fun read, and not too gruesome at all, and Brandy I thank you for that
	6:43pm The Butterman: How has no one mentioned that Dave the Spazz has had Bingo attached to his neck/shoulder. Didn’t you notice Dave was “away” and “suck” for many weeks last year. Has anyone even seen him in a year?
	6:44pm Brandy Schillace Author: thank you Ken!
	6:44pm dale: star trek voyager, someone had there body stolen and a holodeck version of his organs and body kept him temporarily alive.
	6:45pm David in London: I bet the monkeys held a little party on the day he died.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Oof, the poor monkeys still have plenty of human-hubris-and-curiosity-based problems.
	6:47pm iiibeat: Well . . Zen Buddhism suggests that truth is transmitted and not communicated . . lol Maybe that body would be more effective without vocal chords . . lol
	6:48pm -Ken: The lockdown has been very hard on macaques throughout Southeast Asia. With all the tourists gone, they've lost their food source. And they're not happy about it.
	6:48pm khd: instead of preserving dying genius we need to stop killing living genius via capitalism - check and mate
	6:48pm iiibeat: Consciousness is always in the past.
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: And the "I didn't say they wouldn't, I said you shouldn't" issue is also still the crux of the Silicon Valley ethical failure -- there's the Techtonic buy-back for the night.
	6:49pm drowsy: There would have to be a law that if you didn't bring enough bodies for all the brains on the bus, don't take out your gum. Or something. What I mean is - Bezos will get to live forever by giving out amazon gift cards to temp workers, and the rest of us... wont.
	6:49pm iiibeat: Fresh definition potential for "body surfing" . .
	6:50pm David in London: He should have quit whilst he was ahead.
	6:50pm -Ken: Sorry to say that it was Tesla that did the monkey brain implant for playing pong with thoughts alone
	6:50pm Dr. Brandy Schillace: Dave! Ha
	6:51pm nortonjutland: sounds like a very interesting and unusual book. thank you, looking forward to reading it.
	6:51pm moontana: Check out IMP PLUS by Joseph McElroy. It's about a brain that is used as the computer in a satellite that orbits the earth. IMP PLUS!
	6:51pm Dr. Brandy Schillace: Thank you! I hope you will enjoy it
	6:52pm drowsy: Happy that you are sane and helping us through these issues, Dr. Ken - thanks for this hour w/ Dr. Schillace
	🤖 6:52pm Bas NL: Imagine being aware your head is in the fridge.
	6:53pm The Butterman: Frank O’Toole’s , opening song from the man with two brains is going through my heads.
	6:53pm iiibeat: The more definitions a name has the more power it has.
	6:53pm khd: there was a german patient who placed an ad in the classifieds
	6:54pm iiibeat: New definition for giving or receiving head . .
	6:54pm Brandy Schillace Author: So glad you all joined in tonight
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: It's a little orthogonal, but Jennifer Hecht's The End of the Soul keeps coming to my mind during all of this: French anthropologists in the 19th c. willing their brains to science to prove there is no soul. Thanks, Dr. Schillace! And thanks for joining in the chat. Very interesting stuff, despite the hubris of using other lives for it. Thanks, Ken! We are going to need Proof of Head when Mark comes back next week.
	6:54pm khd: cool show - thanks doc and slim ken!
	6:55pm -Ken: Brandy, thank you so much for the book, and the interview, and for joining us here tonight.. I need to prepare for the sign-off and the next show. Thanks for hanging out everybody!
	6:55pm Brandy Schillace Author: bows thank YOU
	🤖 6:55pm Bas NL: Thanks Dr. Schillace! Thanks SM Ken!
	🤖 6:56pm tim from champaign (now washington): Very interesting, Staysh! Thanks for your thoughts and conversation, Dr Shillace.
	🤖 6:56pm Folsom: This was a really good interview.
	6:56pm David in London: Right, I’m off to listen to Roky Erickson before bed. Thanks to all for a fascinating show.
	6:56pm Brandy Schillace Author: cheers to all
	6:56pm Franco Twinkie: This was a welcome reprieve from the usual hectoring about the horrors of A.I. Thank you Brandy and Ken.
	6:56pm dale: couple of my relatives did that. a nice way to not have to pay for cremation.
	6:56pm listener james from westwood: Many thanks to you both!
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Night, David! I am immediately incorporating as "Science" in hopes of one day getting Ken's head.
	6:56pm drowsy: Donate your car, boat or head to WFMU
	6:57pm ed: loving the show. So I guess we can assume that Walt Disney's head isn't running the Disney+ programming?
	6:57pm slugluv1313: somewhat related: the books and other works authored by C. Ray Greek M.D. and Jean Swingle Greek D.V.M. -- "Sacred Cows and Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Experiments on Animals," "Specious Science: How Genetics and Evolution Reveal Why Medical Research on Animals Harms Humans" -- i first heard Dr. Greek speak at an animal rights conference in Princeton (2000, i think? i learned of and got involved with the SHAC campaign there too) -- he talked of how while vivisection may have been somewhat logical 100 years ago, maybe even 50 years ago, science and medicine are way more advanced now; species differentiate at the cellular and molecular level, and doing "research" on other species for humans is not only no longer valid, but downright dangerous
	🤖 6:57pm tim from champaign (now washington): I'm still not convinced that Staysh isn't trying something funny with Mark Hurst.
	🤖 6:57pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks for the headspace, Ken & Dr. Brandy!
	6:57pm Barney Grubbs: poly(ethylene glycol) also plays an important role in some of the covid vaccine particles
	6:57pm Erin in TO: Amazing interview and topic, thank you Ken and Dr Schillace
	6:57pm The Butterman: Imagine Andy in this conversation? Uggggg, blech!
	6:58pm joe mulligan: thank you Dr Shillace and Ken!
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: Thank you, slugluv!
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Andy's head will live on forever, chewing gum for all eternity.
	6:58pm Brandy Schillace Author: Thank you thank you :)
	6:58pm dale: thanks! a fun show!
	6:59pm slugluv1313: fascinating show! thank you so very very much, Dr. Schillace and Station Manager Ken!!!
	6:59pm nathan: awesome show, thank you Brandy!!
	7:00pm slugluv1313: hiya Handy -- thank you!
	7:00pm bukowski.: Fascinating! Thank you Staysh and Dr Schillace!
	7:00pm moontana: Ken is indeed a great break from the humble Mark Hurst. Hectoring may be the word.
	🤖 7:03pm Ken From Hyde Park: By the way, thanks for not closing with "You'll Never Walk Alone."
	🤖 7:04pm chresti: Thank you!
	8:06pm bayowulf: Great show!

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 12, 2021

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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April 12, 2021: The Problem with Head Transplants, with Dr. Brandy Schillace

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Still from 1962's Horror Movie, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die"

Tonight's program features Dr. Brandy Schillace, author of the new book, "Mr. Humble and Dr. Butcher: A Monkey's Head, the Pope's Neuroscientist, and the Quest to Transplant the Soul"

An autographed copy of the book can be purchased via Mac's Backs books in Cleveland.

Dr. Schillace's "Medical Humanities" journal, published by BMJ, can be found here.

The Washington Post's review of "Mr. Humble and Dr. Butcher: A Monkey's Head, the Pope's Neuroscientist, and the Quest to Transplant the Soul" can be found here.

Dr. Robert J. White's biography on Wikipedia can be found here.

Zero to No Monkeys were harmed in the manufacture of the WFMU Monkey Brain T-shirt:

Two short films which are referenced on tonight's programme:

Experiments in the Revival of Organisms, from 1940, on Archive.org:

click image above to see the movie

Vladimir Demikhov's 1960 short film showing Cerberus, the surgically created two-headed-dog, which inspired both Dr. White and Christian Barnard:

And finally, Roky Erickson's song about all of this:

Artist	Track	Album	Label	Year	Format	Comments	Images	New * / Special ***	Approx. start time

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Listener comments!
	5:59pm ARB: I hope we get to hear all the plus sides of head transplants as well, for a balanced perspective.
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Well, Ken, I hope that there's no Big Reveal at the end of episode about what was really going on with the horn removal. But the Techgin is poured. Cheers, Techyon Drives! Let's doff our heads to Staysh for filling in ...
	6:01pm dale: SING THE THEME SONG KEN.
	6:02pm listener james from westwood: Hah, perfect graphic!
	🤖 6:02pm tim from champaign (now washington): Oh no! It just occurred to me that Staysh transplanted his head on Mark Hurst's body.
	6:02pm listener james from westwood: (And one of the better MST3K episodes!)
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Sound clips from How To Get A Head In Advertising please.
	6:02pm David in London: Evening Technoids. Station Manager Ken at the controls!
	🤖 6:03pm Bas NL: SM Ken! All, keep your heads on!
	6:03pm nathan: i want a follow-up Fuzzy Glove Hour episode where ken's head gets grafted onto andy
	🤖 6:04pm Ken From Hyde Park: Oh dear. We might get the origin story of the screaming goats tonight.
	6:04pm Brandy Schillace Author: The whole head transplant thing is kind of complicated... :)
	6:04pm teod: del.icio.us represent
	6:05pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: Oh, that video. Don't watch. Or do. I'm not the boss of you.
	6:05pm listener james from westwood: That video was projected on the wall during one of the Record Fairs. It was a hell of a thing staffing the volunteer/WFMU table across from that for a shift.
	🤖 6:05pm Handy Haversack: The real trigger warning should be YouTube links on Techtonic!
	6:05pm David in London: I’ve been working in the Kremlin with a two-headed dog, as Roky used to sing.
	6:06pm Brandy Schillace Author: Listening to myself is always...interesting
	6:06pm nathan: "head-on"
	6:06pm Glistener MW: “I wanted to address HEAD on...”
	6:06pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: LOL David!
	6:06pm Brandy Schillace Author: It's hard to get your head around it, too, just saying
	6:06pm Amy: Would live to listen but are there cat experiments involved? Couldn’t, in that case.
	6:07pm Brandy Schillace Author: No cats!
	6:07pm slugluv1313: greetings, SM Ken, everyone! thanks for the trigger warning -- yeah, i am one of those "crazy animal rights extremists" -- so i am always always ALWAYS wishing that these "scientists" would just experiment on each other, and leave the other species alone
	6:07pm -Ken: No cats involved in tonight's programme, Amdy - only mice, dogs and monkeys. And humans
	6:07pm Glistener MW: “Re-weird” — great word. <3
	6:07pm Paul b: Are you telling me that Rocky Erickson song (two-headed dog) was based on a real story?
	6:08pm -Ken: Welcome Brandy! Im so glad you could make it onto the chat tonight,
	6:08pm Brandy Schillace Author: Re-weirding is my brand, I think
	6:08pm Amy: Would’ve given my cat a kidney back in the day, many cats ago.
	6:08pm -Ken: Paul B, it would appear that way.. when was Rocky's Two Headed Dog recorded?
	6:09pm dale: any talk of ray milland's head on rosy greer's body?
	6:09pm melinda: Hi everyone!
	🤖 6:09pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening, WFMU land!
	6:09pm G: "Ethical concerns? We don't need no stinkin' ethical concerns!!!"
	🤖 6:09pm tim from champaign (now washington): Ken - All I ask is that you play Richard Hell's "The Boy With The Replacible HEad".
	🤖 6:09pm DjLorraine: Interesting 🤔
	6:10pm Glistener MW: Re-weirding is what I have to do immediately after stumbling into a suburban mall on some rare occasion.
	6:10pm dale: how about just dead inside. like emotionally....
	6:10pm listener james from westwood: The re-weirding way.
	6:11pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: Two Headed Dog: I believe it was recorded around '74, when Roky formed '...and the Aliens'
	6:11pm listener james from westwood: @dale I don't think that stands out as much since the past year!
	6:11pm Brandy Schillace Author: Those questions about life and death--that is really what intrigued me. Tech changed what we meant by alive and dead. (We need t-shirts that say the Re-Weirding Way)
	6:11pm khd: "well i'm not gonna wait for someone to die" lol - i want that person for my doctor
	6:11pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: The Cramps had a song Two-Headed Sex Change, because of course they did.
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: What is to be cured by a head transplant?
	6:12pm -Ken: Brandy, is the 3 minute video of the two-headed dog video that I found on youtube just a short excerpt of the film that was released in 1958? How long was the footage they leaked?
	6:12pm khd: i want a doctor willing to kill someone to save my life
	🤖 6:12pm Handy Haversack: Seems extreme for goiters, Bas.
	6:12pm G: @Bas: Annoying Personality Syndrome
	6:13pm Brandy Schillace Author: There was a longer one, which I managed to find some clips of on a different documentary -- so it much have been longer than the clip online. I have not seen the whole thing.
	6:14pm Brandy Schillace Author: I should mention that there were several two-headed dogs. We know about 9 but there were others.
	6:14pm -Ken: How exactly did the Soviets get that film to the west? Did they give a sixteen mm film to a diplomat or something?
	6:14pm slugluv1313: @dale -- right? or, John Randolph transformed into Rock Hudson in "Seconds"? or gosh, even "Human Centipede" :)
	🤖 6:14pm Bas NL: He, he.. My head drifted off.. The Cure had 'Head On The Door'..
	6:15pm Brandy Schillace Author: It's a good question; I suggest in the book that it was something the Soviets wanted to release, to goad the US.
	6:15pm dale: some russian defector ended up with a distended colon ken.
	🤖 6:15pm Handy Haversack: Poor Bulgakov.
	6:15pm iiibeat: This topic has come up recently in a film called The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and also a fairy tale called Tatterhood.
	🤖 6:16pm Folsom: No "Man with two heads" pics?
	6:16pm Brandy Schillace Author: Brains on ice, essentially
	6:16pm -Ken: Mouse trigger warning!
	🤖 6:16pm tim from champaign (now washington): Was the transplanted head able to take in water and or oxygen?
	🤖 6:16pm Folsom: Spock's Brain!
	6:16pm listener james from westwood: Some WFMU listeners ARE big pink brains floating in space!
	🤖 6:17pm Bas NL: Shivers
	🤖 6:17pm Webhamster Henry: I liked holding a brain over at the Bodies tourist trap show over at the South Street Seaport.
	6:17pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: BRAIN, BRAIN! WHAT IS BRAIN?
	6:17pm Brandy Schillace Author: pink brains are my favorite
	6:17pm -Ken: @Folsom, I wanted to keep the fictional stuff to a minimum since this is all true, amazingly enough. I sort of didnt even want to include that pic from 'the brain that wouldn't die'
	6:17pm listener james from westwood: Or maybe in metal cylinders like "The Whisperer in Darkness."
	6:17pm khd: you ever think about yr brain floating in space, mannn
	6:18pm khd: four twenty smoke weed erry day
	🤖 6:18pm Handy Haversack: Definitely if you want them to survive passage through the vacuum of space, James.
	6:18pm slugluv1313: BRAINSSSSSSSSSSS!!!
	6:18pm -Ken: @tim - the water passed right through, from a tube back into a bsin. The second head of the dog was not hooked up to the host dog's lungs I dont think. The second head was getting oxygen via the blood.
	6:18pm Brandy Schillace Author: I ended up interviewing the founder of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk, for the book.
	6:19pm iiibeat: I think the Headless Horseman used a pumpkin
	🤖 6:19pm Bas NL: Frozen souls.
	🤖 6:19pm tim from champaign (now washington): Oh wow. Thanks Ken.
	6:19pm Brandy Schillace Author: Brain death and brain life! You would be surprised how much debate there still is!
	6:19pm khd: if you like headless characters give the comic book series Nexus a read
	6:20pm iiibeat: Pineal gland. Soul is collective
	6:20pm iiibeat: DMT
	6:20pm -Ken: Brandy during the monkey brain transplants, did they detect different types of brain waves, like REM, Delta etc?
	6:21pm Brandy Schillace Author: "When are you dead enough" to harvest your organs--that is the question they were trying to answer. Technology can really usher in some questions you are not prepared for.
	6:21pm khd: rip DMX
	6:21pm iiibeat: He ain't dead yet!!
	6:22pm Brandy Schillace Author: Ken, They detected and measured three types; the one that was least active was related to sensory perception (as it would be...no eyes, no ears)
	6:22pm joe mulligan: doesn't a living will take care of the question of whether or not someone has wishes to be life supported? I guess the doctors need to have that deciding line. hopefully it doesnt vary state by state.
	6:22pm queems: oh no
	6:22pm dale: how do you separate a brain from the brain stem?
	6:23pm -Ken: Im a little late for the nonkey trigger warning but yeah
	6:23pm G: with a scalpel
	6:23pm Brandy Schillace Author: Joe, it partly has to do with the dead donor rule. You can't take an organ that supports life until declared dead (enough)
	6:23pm Travisano66: "Donor Monkey" is a strange phrase. I'm guessing the monkey didn't actually "donate' it's own head.
	6:23pm joe mulligan: thanks Brandy that makes sense.
	6:24pm Brandy Schillace Author: Ah! Travisano66, there was a larger monkey that was acting as a blood donor to the brain and head of the other monkey.
	6:24pm listener james from westwood: @Ken The various DJs talking up this program did a fine job alerting folks to the possible animal squick, so that was effective.
	6:24pm -Ken: dale, they reconnect all the plumbing and then cut the spinal cord. So the monkeys that were hooked up to the other monkeys bodys, could not control that new body at all.
	6:24pm Franco Twinkie: One of my favorite movies has always been The Brain Wouldn't Die, a real trash classic from 1963. For those who haven't seen it, it goes something like this - A doctor is on a trip to the county with his girl friend in an open convertible with no seat belts. The girl friends head comes off and is kept alive in pan in the basement. It doesn't end well. I suspect a lot of serious medical curiosity was hatched in the wake of the movie.
	🤖 6:24pm tim from champaign (now washington): If I had a monkey's brain attached to my body, I can guarantee that my IQ would double.
	6:24pm queems: this reminds me of mars attacks!
	6:24pm khd: this is gross
	6:25pm Brandy Schillace Author: James, and Ken, I promise I toned things down in the book. I had to watch the films. It was...difficult at times.
	6:25pm listener james from westwood: @Franco You know they'd have kept Reagan's brain alive if they had the tech and needed to post Hinckley.
	6:25pm David in London: If the Soviets were happy to show off their two headed dog, can you imagine the experiments they didn’t want to share? Sheesh.
	6:25pm khd: omg an incredibly quick surgeon... jesus
	6:26pm David in London: It must have cost him a fortune in Winnalot.
	6:26pm dale: i would think you would want monkey brain A to control monkey body B, then the monkey undead army. but baby steps i guess.
	6:26pm -Ken: Demikhov wpuld walk a real surgically created two headed dog down the street.. I wonder if he covered the heads with a sheet or something
	6:26pm listener james from westwood: @Brandy: No lie about the films. I've only seen the heart/lung one and that was a handful. Thanks for soldiering through them for us all!
	6:27pm khd: @david in london - probably a hell of a lot less then the US?
	🤖 6:27pm Bas NL: I just read the spinal chord contains about a million axons.. that's a lot of stitches.
	6:27pm listener james from westwood: @David in London, there's the occasional rumble about Soviet chimp-human fusions.
	6:27pm McGroovey: Less shocking a topic than it seemed at the start. Terry Gross would have asked fewer questions about two-headed dogs, and would have figured out a way to talk about sex.
	6:27pm queems: i have to respectfully bow out but this is very interesting
	6:27pm listener james from westwood: 1970!! Holy crap!
	6:28pm G: All Your Head Are Belong To Us
	6:28pm listener james from westwood: @McGroovey: Plus Gross would've interrupted every other response.
	6:29pm Ed F. Sleestak Jr.: One of my favorite Devo lyrics: Butchers steal doctor's tools, Sow pretty heads on dogs and mules
	6:29pm slugluv1313: @Amy -- you know how people are always donating their bodies to science, medical research, body farms, etc. once they die? i am trying to find out if there is a way that i can mandate that my dead body be used to help other species -- i am not sure if this is even possible, but i figure that humans have enough scientific research done in their name
	6:29pm Franco Twinkie: I've heard that James From Westwood. The question is, why on earth would anyone want Reagans head kept alive. Even people who are Republicans have to admit he wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box.
	6:29pm listener james from westwood: @Bas NL: That's what feels like so much of a hard stop on getting a head to control another body. How do you reattach all those?!
	6:29pm Brandy Schillace Author: The fights that happened between White and other surgeons/scientists and PETA actually ended up making for better rules about the treatment of animals. The laws now require animals to have enrichment (they can't just be monkeys in tiny cages). Lots of people are still against the experiments, though.
	🤖 6:29pm Handy Haversack: I'm sure the Star-Spangled dog would have had at least four heads.
	6:30pm listener james from westwood: @Franco: He was a useful tool, like 45, the guy you have fake a seizure to distract the cops while the rest of the thieves rob the bank.
	🤖 6:30pm Folsom: Ken, how about a pic of Ted Williams, that close enough?
	6:30pm Doug in JC: Keeping Reagan alive makes me think of the struldbrugg in Gulliver's Travels
	6:30pm -Ken: Ted Sr, or Ted Jr?
	6:31pm iiibeat: Thoughts are space too
	6:31pm nathan: @Franco, modern republicans seem to worship Reagan
	6:31pm Fredericks: Just got here. Is Ken talking about the Monkees' Head?
	6:31pm Doug in JC: Didn't the cryo company totally mess up and Ted's head thawed out?
	6:31pm Brandy Schillace Author: Once you sever the spinal cord, you can't really grow it back. They are working on this, but so far, severed spine is the end of movement below the cut.
	6:31pm khd: omg we're only half way thru!~
	6:32pm -Ken: They really have to work with the head of a person who has already learned to control a cursor and keyboard with their mind
	🤖 6:32pm Bas NL: And what if you cross a couple of axons.. and are axons solidly defined in function..
	6:32pm Brandy Schillace Author: BUT HE WAS!
	🤖 6:33pm Handy Haversack: My mind has arms and fingers at its disposal, and I can't even do that, Ken.
	6:33pm -Ken: @Bas, they just cut through all of those. They made no attempt to connect that level of wiring from head A to body B
	6:33pm Brandy Schillace Author: Earlier someone asked (and I forget who) what does a head transplant cure. In a way, the body transplant is kind of a life support system. The idea was keeping someone alive who would otherwise die.
	🤖 6:33pm Bas NL: Kidneys are a no-brainer in comparison.
	🤖 6:34pm chresti: So you have to keep the spinal chord attached to the brain?
	6:34pm khd: a chance to cut is a chance to cure
	🤖 6:34pm tim from champaign (now washington): Were any type of transplants performed by Nazi or Japanese doctors during WWII? I know both sets of doctors performed human vivisection experiments.
	6:34pm Brandy Schillace Author: They basically cut right through the cord at C2 and C3, so from the neck down.
	6:35pm khd: i think that's a certain psychosis with some doctor types
	6:35pm khd: and i don't mean that totally negative
	6:35pm khd: but at it's extreme you run into people like dr. gull aka jack the ripper
	6:35pm Brandy Schillace Author: Tim, I am not sure about that, but there were extensive brain experiments in the gulags in the Soviet Union.
	6:37pm David in London: The good news? A new body has become available for you. The bad news? It’s a Great Dane....
	6:37pm dano59: Not to make light of this, but I wouldn’t mind a body transplant ... aw, take my head too.
	🤖 6:37pm Handy Haversack: David, ... Hamlet?
	6:38pm joe mulligan: it's crazy how little identity an organ (other than the brain) has. meaning you can transplant any organ but the BODY has so many unique characteristics to make everything different. i.e. you can take any good kidney that will be accepted but when you're taking a body, an ethics question comes up about what kind of body etc
	6:38pm khd: haha... that sounds like something Andy would do
	6:39pm dano59: Reagan’s head is alive! I saw it on Futurama
	🤖 6:39pm Bas NL: Alas, poor Yorick.
	🤖 6:39pm tim from champaign (now washington): Thanks, Brandy.
	6:39pm slugluv1313: i guess for me, the "ethical" question is whether or not we would force whatever on a human (although here too, humans have been unwilling subjects in "research")
	6:40pm khd: just die ffs
	🤖 6:41pm Ken From Hyde Park: "Blink once to accept the terms and conditions."
	6:41pm slugluv1313: Dr. Schillace, i am really loving this discussion, and have got to read your book -- THANK YOU!!!
	6:41pm Brandy Schillace Author: The cadaver head transplant has happened. Strange, no?
	6:42pm Brandy Schillace Author: Thank you slugluv1313 :) It was a lot of fun to write--and it reads a little like...well, like an adventure
	6:42pm G: @ Ken From Hyde Park: That's about how much input we get when being forced to check-mark an electronic TOS box.
	6:43pm -Ken: The books a really great fun read, and not too gruesome at all, and Brandy I thank you for that
	6:43pm The Butterman: How has no one mentioned that Dave the Spazz has had Bingo attached to his neck/shoulder. Didn’t you notice Dave was “away” and “suck” for many weeks last year. Has anyone even seen him in a year?
	6:44pm Brandy Schillace Author: thank you Ken!
	6:44pm dale: star trek voyager, someone had there body stolen and a holodeck version of his organs and body kept him temporarily alive.
	6:45pm David in London: I bet the monkeys held a little party on the day he died.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Oof, the poor monkeys still have plenty of human-hubris-and-curiosity-based problems.
	6:47pm iiibeat: Well . . Zen Buddhism suggests that truth is transmitted and not communicated . . lol Maybe that body would be more effective without vocal chords . . lol
	6:48pm -Ken: The lockdown has been very hard on macaques throughout Southeast Asia. With all the tourists gone, they've lost their food source. And they're not happy about it.
	6:48pm khd: instead of preserving dying genius we need to stop killing living genius via capitalism - check and mate
	6:48pm iiibeat: Consciousness is always in the past.
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: And the "I didn't say they wouldn't, I said you shouldn't" issue is also still the crux of the Silicon Valley ethical failure -- there's the Techtonic buy-back for the night.
	6:49pm drowsy: There would have to be a law that if you didn't bring enough bodies for all the brains on the bus, don't take out your gum. Or something. What I mean is - Bezos will get to live forever by giving out amazon gift cards to temp workers, and the rest of us... wont.
	6:49pm iiibeat: Fresh definition potential for "body surfing" . .
	6:50pm David in London: He should have quit whilst he was ahead.
	6:50pm -Ken: Sorry to say that it was Tesla that did the monkey brain implant for playing pong with thoughts alone
	6:50pm Dr. Brandy Schillace: Dave! Ha
	6:51pm nortonjutland: sounds like a very interesting and unusual book. thank you, looking forward to reading it.
	6:51pm moontana: Check out IMP PLUS by Joseph McElroy. It's about a brain that is used as the computer in a satellite that orbits the earth. IMP PLUS!
	6:51pm Dr. Brandy Schillace: Thank you! I hope you will enjoy it
	6:52pm drowsy: Happy that you are sane and helping us through these issues, Dr. Ken - thanks for this hour w/ Dr. Schillace
	🤖 6:52pm Bas NL: Imagine being aware your head is in the fridge.
	6:53pm The Butterman: Frank O’Toole’s , opening song from the man with two brains is going through my heads.
	6:53pm iiibeat: The more definitions a name has the more power it has.
	6:53pm khd: there was a german patient who placed an ad in the classifieds
	6:54pm iiibeat: New definition for giving or receiving head . .
	6:54pm Brandy Schillace Author: So glad you all joined in tonight
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: It's a little orthogonal, but Jennifer Hecht's The End of the Soul keeps coming to my mind during all of this: French anthropologists in the 19th c. willing their brains to science to prove there is no soul. Thanks, Dr. Schillace! And thanks for joining in the chat. Very interesting stuff, despite the hubris of using other lives for it. Thanks, Ken! We are going to need Proof of Head when Mark comes back next week.
	6:54pm khd: cool show - thanks doc and slim ken!
	6:55pm -Ken: Brandy, thank you so much for the book, and the interview, and for joining us here tonight.. I need to prepare for the sign-off and the next show. Thanks for hanging out everybody!
	6:55pm Brandy Schillace Author: bows thank YOU
	🤖 6:55pm Bas NL: Thanks Dr. Schillace! Thanks SM Ken!
	🤖 6:56pm tim from champaign (now washington): Very interesting, Staysh! Thanks for your thoughts and conversation, Dr Shillace.
	🤖 6:56pm Folsom: This was a really good interview.
	6:56pm David in London: Right, I’m off to listen to Roky Erickson before bed. Thanks to all for a fascinating show.
	6:56pm Brandy Schillace Author: cheers to all
	6:56pm Franco Twinkie: This was a welcome reprieve from the usual hectoring about the horrors of A.I. Thank you Brandy and Ken.
	6:56pm dale: couple of my relatives did that. a nice way to not have to pay for cremation.
	6:56pm listener james from westwood: Many thanks to you both!
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Night, David! I am immediately incorporating as "Science" in hopes of one day getting Ken's head.
	6:56pm drowsy: Donate your car, boat or head to WFMU
	6:57pm ed: loving the show. So I guess we can assume that Walt Disney's head isn't running the Disney+ programming?
	6:57pm slugluv1313: somewhat related: the books and other works authored by C. Ray Greek M.D. and Jean Swingle Greek D.V.M. -- "Sacred Cows and Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Experiments on Animals," "Specious Science: How Genetics and Evolution Reveal Why Medical Research on Animals Harms Humans" -- i first heard Dr. Greek speak at an animal rights conference in Princeton (2000, i think? i learned of and got involved with the SHAC campaign there too) -- he talked of how while vivisection may have been somewhat logical 100 years ago, maybe even 50 years ago, science and medicine are way more advanced now; species differentiate at the cellular and molecular level, and doing "research" on other species for humans is not only no longer valid, but downright dangerous
	🤖 6:57pm tim from champaign (now washington): I'm still not convinced that Staysh isn't trying something funny with Mark Hurst.
	🤖 6:57pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks for the headspace, Ken & Dr. Brandy!
	6:57pm Barney Grubbs: poly(ethylene glycol) also plays an important role in some of the covid vaccine particles
	6:57pm Erin in TO: Amazing interview and topic, thank you Ken and Dr Schillace
	6:57pm The Butterman: Imagine Andy in this conversation? Uggggg, blech!
	6:58pm joe mulligan: thank you Dr Shillace and Ken!
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: Thank you, slugluv!
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Andy's head will live on forever, chewing gum for all eternity.
	6:58pm Brandy Schillace Author: Thank you thank you :)
	6:58pm dale: thanks! a fun show!
	6:59pm slugluv1313: fascinating show! thank you so very very much, Dr. Schillace and Station Manager Ken!!!
	6:59pm nathan: awesome show, thank you Brandy!!
	7:00pm slugluv1313: hiya Handy -- thank you!
	7:00pm bukowski.: Fascinating! Thank you Staysh and Dr Schillace!
	7:00pm moontana: Ken is indeed a great break from the humble Mark Hurst. Hectoring may be the word.
	🤖 7:03pm Ken From Hyde Park: By the way, thanks for not closing with "You'll Never Walk Alone."
	🤖 7:04pm chresti: Thank you!
	8:06pm bayowulf: Great show!

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 12, 2021

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