WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from October 11, 2021

Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonteous!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! The Techgin is Techrye, but I could still really use a generous measure of Techtonic.
	6:01pm Yes: hallo
	6:01pm HyperDose: Strapped in and ready to learn!
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	6:02pm David in London: Hello groovers. Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Greetings, people of Tech!
	6:02pm Little Danny: praying for Amazon to go down right now
	6:03pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: No Amazon would inconvenience me less...
	🤖 6:03pm Webhamster Henry: Ken even remixed your Fb rant...
	🤖 6:03pm Handy Haversack: Hey, ultradamno, Yes, HyperDose, James, David, Webhamster, Little Danny. HyperDose is learning on his own! Let's get him!
	6:03pm ultradamno: In fairness, I don't think a pigeon has ever been truthful with me, exactly
	6:03pm ShelbyG: That was a FANTASTIC show!
	6:03pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	🤖 6:03pm tim from washington: Hey Mark and crew! I survived the Blackout of '21!
	6:04pm Franco Twinkie: We loved it Mark!
	🤖 6:04pm Handy Haversack: ultradamno: Sir! You are talking! to a Pigeon! (My softball team since 2001!)
	6:04pm joe mulligan: last week was amazing and I love how Ken called it your Network moment!
	6:04pm Little Danny: yeah you were so great last week Mark
	6:05pm dale: happy international indigenous italian american day of the girl.
	6:05pm ultradamno: If it makes you feel better, parrots are the real problem. They'll spit back out any misinformation you tell them.
	🤖 6:05pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techsavvies!
	6:05pm dale: ....and mattress sale day.
	6:05pm ShelbyG: I like the idea of live call-ins. Not every week.
	6:05pm joe mulligan: felt like we were experiencing part of history in real time all together
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: In general, you need interview-less shows about once a month just to clear the decks.
	6:06pm wendy del formaggio: I listened to last week’s show on the archives. It was AWESOME, especially the Beale-esque rant. YAY MARK! We’re so lucky to have Techtonic. ❤️
	🤖 6:06pm Handy Haversack: I think hearing from the listeners from time to time would be a wonderful feature. There are some passionate people. And I want to hear the apologists and defenders so that we can get righteous on 'em!
	🤖 6:06pm tim from washington: I appreciate diverse opinions so I having call-in shows now and then sounds great.
	6:07pm queems: pledge to wfmu for more unhinged tech rants!!!
	🤖 6:07pm Handy Haversack: queems: this is why I pledge.
	6:07pm ShelbyG: joe mulligan: it felt like that for me, too!
	🤖 6:08pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hey, Mark. Flog those tech scoundrels!
	6:08pm Franco Twinkie: You think you can rant!? Just you wait.
	6:08pm Marci: Brilliant show last week !
	6:09pm HyperDose: @Little Danny As of today, I have no pending amazon deliveries. So hack it up, friend! @Handy Yes, I have become sentient. Also...hey to you and K8! =]
	6:10pm ultradamno: Giulani can boast a similar stand on cousins as Einstein...that's probably where the similarities end.
	6:10pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: 'If it's not a Happy Ending - it's not the ending yet.' - Lennon
	6:11pm ShelbyG: I love this show. Such great, interesting topics.
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: Zuck is a material boy.
	🤖 6:11pm Handy Haversack: All grunting here, HyperDose. frinkiac.com... OK, there is some real yelling going on over here. Time to feed the monsters.
	6:11pm DanFA: Did anyone watch the Haugen testimony in full?
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: meeting over quickly and painlessly, so i can tune in this week! hello, Mark and constantly surveilled ones.
	🤖 6:12pm Webhamster Henry: it's the old G.W. Bush "I'd drink a beer with him..."
	6:13pm ShelbyG: Webmaster: totally.
	6:13pm Passaic River Blues: First time listening and I'm locked in.
	🤖 6:13pm tim from washington: Or nice guys in they give money to the right political party.
	🤖 6:13pm Webhamster Henry: “You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, You're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world.” -- The Witch, Into The Woods
	6:14pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Hitler loved his dogs. Like - million$ in philanthropy are Corporate PR for not paying billion$ in taxes & destroying competition.
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! thanks for joining tonight!
	6:15pm ultradamno: How high is most people's bar when it come to who they'll drink a beer with? Especially once I'm a couple of drinks in, all bets are off.
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: @Wendy thanks so much :)
	6:16pm Doug in JC: When I was maybe 13 I defended someone by saying they were nice. My friend's dad told me that nice was meaningless, and that the important things to look for were intelligence, sensitivity, and compassion. I've never forgotten it.
	6:16pm annie: i HAVE to say this about the new "Proper-Speech" pattern: please stop interrupting sentences to correct the words you feel will be "offensive" or "wrong." criminy, just flicking speak your sentences, stop worrying if the words you're using are going to offend someone. this, in itself, is the toxicity of today's culture.
	6:17pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Cory Doctorow illustrates : If you put up a Billboard on a thoroughfare - & it's misinformation, damaging & hateful - everyone can see everyone else seeing it in public space - & know someone paid for it. Online - all those qualifiers for public space are removed...
	6:17pm Passaic River Blues: OT: Starrett City, the massive BK housing development, was sold by the Trump Org. two years ago.
	🤖 6:17pm tim from washington: Damn right being cautious around New Yorkers. They're all wallet inspectors. The whole lot of them!
	6:19pm Wild Neil\|\|Peace All: Michelangelo used to feed his crews catered lunches so they would stick around the worksite.
	🤖 6:20pm Webhamster Henry: There was a rail line directly from the steel mill in Pennsylvania to the ESB site.
	6:21pm Passaic River Blues: Trust but verify.
	6:22pm ShelbyG: “Bill Gates is a nice guy”. Yikes. Donating money/resources without accountability to who’s getting the $$? Not necessarily the “nice guys”.
	6:22pm Doug in JC: @Webmaster under the Hudson or via Albany?
	6:22pm ShelbyG: I’m a Runze from Nebraska. I am a proud Midwesterner.
	🤖 6:22pm Webhamster Henry: Fun fact: The Waldorf Astoria on the ESB site had a Rosendale Cement foundation - which is REALLY HARD.
	🤖 6:23pm tim from washington: This is the interview originally scheduled for last week?
	6:23pm Sam: I always thought it was trump who coined Nice guys finish last
	🤖 6:23pm Handy Haversack: Up the Runzas! Doug: or train to NJ, train ferry, then train in Manhattan?
	6:23pm ShelbyG: RUNZA
	6:23pm Sam: Now it’s the Walled-off Astoria
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: @Tim yes
	6:25pm LCBD: Mark, I’ve been meaning to write to you since last week. Thank you for an excellent show. I quit Instagram!
	6:25pm Tom from Stirling.: that 3B on Cubs was Ron Santo
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @LCBD great to hear! congrats!
	6:26pm ultradamno: Reminds me of Bobby Knight and his shit (which he once showed off to his players)
	🤖 6:26pm Handy Haversack: I don't think there were games that those players didn't do their best to win -- you can't try harder than your hardest just because you don't like the Cubs' manager. Way to go, LCBD!
	6:27pm Sam: Colorfast, natural selection can sometimes favor jerks, especially in the short run. But overall the societies that cooperate are the ones that thrive long term.
	6:27pm Passaic River Blues: @LCBD: nice!
	6:28pm LCBD: Thanks Mark,Handy, and Passaic River Blues! My best friend growing up took piano lessons from Leo’s mom (south side of Chicago.)
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: @LCBD that is so cool! i hope Leo's mom was nicer than her son is reported to have been...
	6:30pm Mark Hurst: Please let's not dive into vaccine issues tonight - that's off-topic for today's show.
	6:31pm Sam: We’re still in the midst of evolving morally. Give us a couple more million years and everyone will be a good person with no evil desires. Like on Star Trek kind of, but even better.
	6:31pm Mark Hurst: I covered the vaccine + tech recently on the Aug 9 show. For the record, I am pro-vaccine and against the unnecessary surveillance from vaccine apps: www.wfmu.org... Let's just leave it there. Thanks
	🤖 6:32pm Handy Haversack: Nazis. I hate these guys.
	6:32pm Carmichael: Dude, enough.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: I'm going to censor way off-topic chat because that drags down our discourse here. Thanks.
	6:32pm Carmichael: I hate Illinois Nazis.
	6:33pm ultradamno: One way Trump isn't like Hitler or Goebbels, he never really failed at art.
	🤖 6:33pm Ken From Hyde Park: Be Nice to Trolls Week was in July or something.
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: You could argue that reality TV is the failure of art, ultradamno.
	6:34pm Sam: It’s better to be loved than to be feared
	6:34pm ultradamno: But he succeeded at that failure
	6:35pm B R M: Highly recommend reading the two volume biography of Hitler by Volker Ullrich as well... incredibly illuminating books that examine this blueprint. Volume I in particular is about the political rise of the NSDAP.
	🤖 6:35pm Webhamster Henry: @Doug in JC here's read on the innovative construction of the ESB!:constructioncompany.com...
	6:36pm Doug in JC: @Webmaster Thank you! I love this stuff
	6:37pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Yup. WWII followed the Depression. Then, the USA chose FDR, & Germany chose Hitler. After the Great Recession - this time the USA went w/ Drumpf.
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: DFW uses that anecdote.
	6:38pm Sam: You can always justify your own evil acts by framing them as the only effective way to oppose some far greater evil. That’s usually how it works.
	6:39pm listener james from westwood: B R M: Seconding the Ullrich books! Also Longerich's Goebbels biography.
	6:39pm Mark Hurst: @Sam good point. "But it was for the greater good, I promise..."
	6:39pm LCBD: I forgot to say that Peter’s call from FL last week really got to me! Thanks Peter!
	6:39pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...actually, the USA didn't go with Drumpf - in terms of the Popular Vote ...too bad we're not a Democracy.
	6:41pm Mark Hurst: "The Song Of The Dodo: Island Biogeography In An Age Of Extinctions," by David Quammen - www.indiebound.org...
	6:42pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Always been concerned with how people slip between the cracks in our Society - like all the young shooters.
	6:43pm Passaic River Blues: @Mark Hurst: that book and all of Quammen's books are fantastic. The analysis of endemic biodiversity, its beauty and fragility, was utterly fascinating. Great recommendation.
	6:44pm Mark Hurst: @Passaic thanks! There's a lot of resonance with the evolution of tech, too... Facebook/Google are building a monoculture, which Quammen rightly warns against.
	6:44pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Frog in slowly boiling water - slow enuff & it stays & dies.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: I confess I do get worried when the answer seems to be "if capitalism could just behave better." It is contrary to its telos to do so. I guess that's a hesitation I have here -- not about the overarching thesis but about the evidence -- anecdotal evidence and case studies are easiest to refute (look up Asimov and sexual harassment, for example). In the book, is there more connective tissue among the case studies, Mark?
	🤖 6:46pm tim from washington: I appreciate David's empathy. It's refreshing to hear.
	6:47pm Mark Hurst: @Handy I'd say that there's more focus on lessons & takeaways & patterns than I'm getting to in the interview - here I'm focusing more on the stories.
	🤖 6:47pm Webhamster Henry: "Vunce rockets go up, who cares where zey come down? Dat's not my department!" says Werner von Braun. -- Prof. Tom Lehrer
	6:47pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Don't forget the simpatico between Futurism & Fascism. Frankenstein's square head is a Bauhaus design...
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: Understood, Mark, and thanks! Not criticizing at all, just wondering.
	6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Ford was Fascist...
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: And Bela Lugosi's dead!
	6:48pm Mark Hurst: @Handy all good!
	6:49pm Sam: Maybe the government should take over social media sites and make them non-profit utilities with no advertising or profit motive.
	6:49pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Dracula is Magick. The counterpart.
	6:50pm Marie: Hey Mark, I would love it if you would devote a show to covering scholars' proposals for regulating Facebook and other social media. Here's a link to an interview on PBS Newshour with someone from a Harvard think tank on just that: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/twitter-fb-have-deplatformed-trump-is-it-enough
	6:50pm Passaic River Blues: @Handy: I hear that, absolutely. I think such reforms only have any heft if supported or directed by state interventions (as Hurst is now discussing, via taxation, public funding/incentives, anti-trust, and beefed up regulatory oversight). Self-directed "corporate citizen" stuff is bullshit window-dressing.
	6:52pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Just like Biological / Climate Environmentalism. Without addressing the Corporations' impact - it's not going to work.
	6:52pm B R M: Enjoyed that conversation
	🤖 6:53pm Bas NL: If only consumers would transmute to thinking users...
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: Enjoyed it, too! My hesitations are on record. PRB, I'm not sure that this form of government is really capable of ever imposing those things. I'd like to think it possible ... but even at social-safety-net-iest, we still privileged business and wealth over the commonweal. So ... well, just not very sanguine about the possibilities. The Mondragon style might be a model to follow -- and demand legally that all businesses follow.
	🤖 6:54pm tim from washington: Thanks, Mark! This was a great listen.
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: @Sam - I've had a similar idea , which is that the actual social graph would be owned and access to it allowed kind of like HIPAA information, and third parties would have to license it and abide by those privacy rules.
	🤖 6:54pm Ken From Hyde Park: Great show tonight, Mark. Nicely done!
	6:54pm Skillet: “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”
	6:55pm full_english_breakfast: Good interview!
	🤖 6:55pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks David!
	6:56pm Richy4619: TY Mark + David + WFMU
	🤖 6:56pm DjLorraine: Thank you
	6:57pm annie: i have to listen to last week's show.
	6:57pm Little Danny: thank you Mark (and David)!
	6:57pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thanks Mark & David!
	6:57pm Passaic River Blues: @Handy: totally, totally with you. What I outlined requires a massive political realignment/reformation. Thank you, Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark! Thanks, David! A principled stand -- imagine the wonder of it all! This show really provides excellent models when tough choices come up -- personally, professionally. Just remembering to know that ethics are involved in choices that for so many people are merely routine. Anyway, thanks for this! Later on, Techyon Drives!
	6:57pm listener 126464: Thanks Mark, thanks David.
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: (And thanks, Becky!)
	6:58pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: TY
	6:58pm Sam: Godspeed Captain Shatner!
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:59pm ultradamno: Those snobby pricks at the general store.
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: ...Thanks David Bodanis
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone! Good discussion this evening.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from October 11, 2021

View Mark Hurst's profile

Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Dec 30th, 6pm - 7pm: Andrew Smith, author, "Devil in the Stack" (More info...)
Writer Andrew Smith decided to learn computer programming in his 50s. What happened next is captured in his book "Devil in the Stack: A Code Odyssey," and wide-ranging tour through computer history, neuroscience, and the friendliest programming language.

October 11, 2021: David Bodanis, author, "The Art of Fairness"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

<em><a href="https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781419756351" target="_blank">The Art of Fairness</a></em>, by David Bodanis

The Art of Fairness, by David Bodanis

Today: David Bodanis, author of The Art of Fairness: The Power of Decency in a World Turned Mean.

Bio (via publisher site): David Bodanis was born in Chicago, lived in France for a decade, and makes his home in London. He studied math, physics, and history at the University of Chicago, and for many years, taught the “Intellectual Toolkit” course at Oxford. His books include the New York Times bestselling The Secret House, the bestselling E=mc², which was adapted into the PBS documentary Einstein’s Big Idea, and the Royal Society Science Book of the Year Prize winner Electric Universe.

Links:

• DavidBodanis.com

• SpaceX’s Satellite Megaconstellations Are Astrocolonialism, Indigenous Advocates Say (Vice, Oct 5, 2021): " Satellite companies such as SpaceX and Amazon aim to provide global broadband, but their networks threaten dark skies and Indigenous traditions that depend on them. ... Earth orbit may contain 100,000 operational satellites by 2030."

• Even when you turn the iPhone "off," Apple's Find My feature can still locate the phone. This means there's no such thing as "off" for smartphones. As this post reminds us, "A smartphone is a human tracking device, no matter what."

On Facebook as Big Tobacco

• Roger McNamee (past Techtonic guest) posts: "Analogizing FB to tobacco or alcohol trivializes the damage FB does. Tobacco and alcohol did not undermine democracy, enable an insurrection, or extend a pandemic, much less all 3 in one year."

• Jason Kint posts:"I wish in the constant analogy of Facebook to big tobacco, people would point out that tobacco causes cancer - which, last I checked, isn’t contagious. The second hand-effects of Facebook are a lot more dangerous than second-hand smoke and cigarettes never threatened democracy."

• Sandeep Vaheesan posts: "Ban surveillance advertising and force firms to make money through contextual ads and subscription fees (newspaper model); split Facebook into multiple rivals; mandate interoperability across networks." (I add: "Break up the company; Ban algorithmic amplification; Put Zuck & Sheryl on trial for criminal behavior.")

• My response to Derek Thompson positing Facebook as “alcohol” - I posted, “could we say that ‘alcohol’ drove the rioters into the Capitol on Jan 6? or the rise of hate groups? no. this is something far worse.”

• My own comments: Facebook’s laughable response to the whistleblower (Oct 7, 2021)

Finally, from Canadian cartoonist Bruce MacKinnon, "How Facebook turns a profit":

• Outtro tonight from Honky Tonk Radio Girl with Becky, from September 15, 2021. Listen to Becky's show every Wednesday from 8pm to 9pm Eastern.

PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Do nice guys always finish last? David Bodanis discusses his new book, "The Art of Fairness."
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with David Bodanis "Interview with David Bodanis"	0:11:30 (Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:50:02 (Pop-up)
Jim Nesbitt	Nice Guys Always Finish Last	0:56:04 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonteous!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Mark and all the Techyon Drives! The Techgin is Techrye, but I could still really use a generous measure of Techtonic.
	6:01pm Yes: hallo
	6:01pm HyperDose: Strapped in and ready to learn!
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	6:02pm David in London: Hello groovers. Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: Greetings, people of Tech!
	6:02pm Little Danny: praying for Amazon to go down right now
	6:03pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: No Amazon would inconvenience me less...
	🤖 6:03pm Webhamster Henry: Ken even remixed your Fb rant...
	🤖 6:03pm Handy Haversack: Hey, ultradamno, Yes, HyperDose, James, David, Webhamster, Little Danny. HyperDose is learning on his own! Let's get him!
	6:03pm ultradamno: In fairness, I don't think a pigeon has ever been truthful with me, exactly
	6:03pm ShelbyG: That was a FANTASTIC show!
	6:03pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	🤖 6:03pm tim from washington: Hey Mark and crew! I survived the Blackout of '21!
	6:04pm Franco Twinkie: We loved it Mark!
	🤖 6:04pm Handy Haversack: ultradamno: Sir! You are talking! to a Pigeon! (My softball team since 2001!)
	6:04pm joe mulligan: last week was amazing and I love how Ken called it your Network moment!
	6:04pm Little Danny: yeah you were so great last week Mark
	6:05pm dale: happy international indigenous italian american day of the girl.
	6:05pm ultradamno: If it makes you feel better, parrots are the real problem. They'll spit back out any misinformation you tell them.
	🤖 6:05pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techsavvies!
	6:05pm dale: ....and mattress sale day.
	6:05pm ShelbyG: I like the idea of live call-ins. Not every week.
	6:05pm joe mulligan: felt like we were experiencing part of history in real time all together
	🤖 6:05pm Webhamster Henry: In general, you need interview-less shows about once a month just to clear the decks.
	6:06pm wendy del formaggio: I listened to last week’s show on the archives. It was AWESOME, especially the Beale-esque rant. YAY MARK! We’re so lucky to have Techtonic. ❤️
	🤖 6:06pm Handy Haversack: I think hearing from the listeners from time to time would be a wonderful feature. There are some passionate people. And I want to hear the apologists and defenders so that we can get righteous on 'em!
	🤖 6:06pm tim from washington: I appreciate diverse opinions so I having call-in shows now and then sounds great.
	6:07pm queems: pledge to wfmu for more unhinged tech rants!!!
	🤖 6:07pm Handy Haversack: queems: this is why I pledge.
	6:07pm ShelbyG: joe mulligan: it felt like that for me, too!
	🤖 6:08pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hey, Mark. Flog those tech scoundrels!
	6:08pm Franco Twinkie: You think you can rant!? Just you wait.
	6:08pm Marci: Brilliant show last week !
	6:09pm HyperDose: @Little Danny As of today, I have no pending amazon deliveries. So hack it up, friend! @Handy Yes, I have become sentient. Also...hey to you and K8! =]
	6:10pm ultradamno: Giulani can boast a similar stand on cousins as Einstein...that's probably where the similarities end.
	6:10pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: 'If it's not a Happy Ending - it's not the ending yet.' - Lennon
	6:11pm ShelbyG: I love this show. Such great, interesting topics.
	🤖 6:11pm Bas NL: Zuck is a material boy.
	🤖 6:11pm Handy Haversack: All grunting here, HyperDose. frinkiac.com... OK, there is some real yelling going on over here. Time to feed the monsters.
	6:11pm DanFA: Did anyone watch the Haugen testimony in full?
	6:11pm chris in the redwoods: meeting over quickly and painlessly, so i can tune in this week! hello, Mark and constantly surveilled ones.
	🤖 6:12pm Webhamster Henry: it's the old G.W. Bush "I'd drink a beer with him..."
	6:13pm ShelbyG: Webmaster: totally.
	6:13pm Passaic River Blues: First time listening and I'm locked in.
	🤖 6:13pm tim from washington: Or nice guys in they give money to the right political party.
	🤖 6:13pm Webhamster Henry: “You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, You're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world.” -- The Witch, Into The Woods
	6:14pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Hitler loved his dogs. Like - million$ in philanthropy are Corporate PR for not paying billion$ in taxes & destroying competition.
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! thanks for joining tonight!
	6:15pm ultradamno: How high is most people's bar when it come to who they'll drink a beer with? Especially once I'm a couple of drinks in, all bets are off.
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: @Wendy thanks so much :)
	6:16pm Doug in JC: When I was maybe 13 I defended someone by saying they were nice. My friend's dad told me that nice was meaningless, and that the important things to look for were intelligence, sensitivity, and compassion. I've never forgotten it.
	6:16pm annie: i HAVE to say this about the new "Proper-Speech" pattern: please stop interrupting sentences to correct the words you feel will be "offensive" or "wrong." criminy, just flicking speak your sentences, stop worrying if the words you're using are going to offend someone. this, in itself, is the toxicity of today's culture.
	6:17pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Cory Doctorow illustrates : If you put up a Billboard on a thoroughfare - & it's misinformation, damaging & hateful - everyone can see everyone else seeing it in public space - & know someone paid for it. Online - all those qualifiers for public space are removed...
	6:17pm Passaic River Blues: OT: Starrett City, the massive BK housing development, was sold by the Trump Org. two years ago.
	🤖 6:17pm tim from washington: Damn right being cautious around New Yorkers. They're all wallet inspectors. The whole lot of them!
	6:19pm Wild Neil\|\|Peace All: Michelangelo used to feed his crews catered lunches so they would stick around the worksite.
	🤖 6:20pm Webhamster Henry: There was a rail line directly from the steel mill in Pennsylvania to the ESB site.
	6:21pm Passaic River Blues: Trust but verify.
	6:22pm ShelbyG: “Bill Gates is a nice guy”. Yikes. Donating money/resources without accountability to who’s getting the $$? Not necessarily the “nice guys”.
	6:22pm Doug in JC: @Webmaster under the Hudson or via Albany?
	6:22pm ShelbyG: I’m a Runze from Nebraska. I am a proud Midwesterner.
	🤖 6:22pm Webhamster Henry: Fun fact: The Waldorf Astoria on the ESB site had a Rosendale Cement foundation - which is REALLY HARD.
	🤖 6:23pm tim from washington: This is the interview originally scheduled for last week?
	6:23pm Sam: I always thought it was trump who coined Nice guys finish last
	🤖 6:23pm Handy Haversack: Up the Runzas! Doug: or train to NJ, train ferry, then train in Manhattan?
	6:23pm ShelbyG: RUNZA
	6:23pm Sam: Now it’s the Walled-off Astoria
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: @Tim yes
	6:25pm LCBD: Mark, I’ve been meaning to write to you since last week. Thank you for an excellent show. I quit Instagram!
	6:25pm Tom from Stirling.: that 3B on Cubs was Ron Santo
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: @LCBD great to hear! congrats!
	6:26pm ultradamno: Reminds me of Bobby Knight and his shit (which he once showed off to his players)
	🤖 6:26pm Handy Haversack: I don't think there were games that those players didn't do their best to win -- you can't try harder than your hardest just because you don't like the Cubs' manager. Way to go, LCBD!
	6:27pm Sam: Colorfast, natural selection can sometimes favor jerks, especially in the short run. But overall the societies that cooperate are the ones that thrive long term.
	6:27pm Passaic River Blues: @LCBD: nice!
	6:28pm LCBD: Thanks Mark,Handy, and Passaic River Blues! My best friend growing up took piano lessons from Leo’s mom (south side of Chicago.)
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: @LCBD that is so cool! i hope Leo's mom was nicer than her son is reported to have been...
	6:30pm Mark Hurst: Please let's not dive into vaccine issues tonight - that's off-topic for today's show.
	6:31pm Sam: We’re still in the midst of evolving morally. Give us a couple more million years and everyone will be a good person with no evil desires. Like on Star Trek kind of, but even better.
	6:31pm Mark Hurst: I covered the vaccine + tech recently on the Aug 9 show. For the record, I am pro-vaccine and against the unnecessary surveillance from vaccine apps: www.wfmu.org... Let's just leave it there. Thanks
	🤖 6:32pm Handy Haversack: Nazis. I hate these guys.
	6:32pm Carmichael: Dude, enough.
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: I'm going to censor way off-topic chat because that drags down our discourse here. Thanks.
	6:32pm Carmichael: I hate Illinois Nazis.
	6:33pm ultradamno: One way Trump isn't like Hitler or Goebbels, he never really failed at art.
	🤖 6:33pm Ken From Hyde Park: Be Nice to Trolls Week was in July or something.
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: You could argue that reality TV is the failure of art, ultradamno.
	6:34pm Sam: It’s better to be loved than to be feared
	6:34pm ultradamno: But he succeeded at that failure
	6:35pm B R M: Highly recommend reading the two volume biography of Hitler by Volker Ullrich as well... incredibly illuminating books that examine this blueprint. Volume I in particular is about the political rise of the NSDAP.
	🤖 6:35pm Webhamster Henry: @Doug in JC here's read on the innovative construction of the ESB!:constructioncompany.com...
	6:36pm Doug in JC: @Webmaster Thank you! I love this stuff
	6:37pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Yup. WWII followed the Depression. Then, the USA chose FDR, & Germany chose Hitler. After the Great Recession - this time the USA went w/ Drumpf.
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: DFW uses that anecdote.
	6:38pm Sam: You can always justify your own evil acts by framing them as the only effective way to oppose some far greater evil. That’s usually how it works.
	6:39pm listener james from westwood: B R M: Seconding the Ullrich books! Also Longerich's Goebbels biography.
	6:39pm Mark Hurst: @Sam good point. "But it was for the greater good, I promise..."
	6:39pm LCBD: I forgot to say that Peter’s call from FL last week really got to me! Thanks Peter!
	6:39pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...actually, the USA didn't go with Drumpf - in terms of the Popular Vote ...too bad we're not a Democracy.
	6:41pm Mark Hurst: "The Song Of The Dodo: Island Biogeography In An Age Of Extinctions," by David Quammen - www.indiebound.org...
	6:42pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Always been concerned with how people slip between the cracks in our Society - like all the young shooters.
	6:43pm Passaic River Blues: @Mark Hurst: that book and all of Quammen's books are fantastic. The analysis of endemic biodiversity, its beauty and fragility, was utterly fascinating. Great recommendation.
	6:44pm Mark Hurst: @Passaic thanks! There's a lot of resonance with the evolution of tech, too... Facebook/Google are building a monoculture, which Quammen rightly warns against.
	6:44pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Frog in slowly boiling water - slow enuff & it stays & dies.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: I confess I do get worried when the answer seems to be "if capitalism could just behave better." It is contrary to its telos to do so. I guess that's a hesitation I have here -- not about the overarching thesis but about the evidence -- anecdotal evidence and case studies are easiest to refute (look up Asimov and sexual harassment, for example). In the book, is there more connective tissue among the case studies, Mark?
	🤖 6:46pm tim from washington: I appreciate David's empathy. It's refreshing to hear.
	6:47pm Mark Hurst: @Handy I'd say that there's more focus on lessons & takeaways & patterns than I'm getting to in the interview - here I'm focusing more on the stories.
	🤖 6:47pm Webhamster Henry: "Vunce rockets go up, who cares where zey come down? Dat's not my department!" says Werner von Braun. -- Prof. Tom Lehrer
	6:47pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Don't forget the simpatico between Futurism & Fascism. Frankenstein's square head is a Bauhaus design...
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: Understood, Mark, and thanks! Not criticizing at all, just wondering.
	6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Ford was Fascist...
	🤖 6:48pm Handy Haversack: And Bela Lugosi's dead!
	6:48pm Mark Hurst: @Handy all good!
	6:49pm Sam: Maybe the government should take over social media sites and make them non-profit utilities with no advertising or profit motive.
	6:49pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Dracula is Magick. The counterpart.
	6:50pm Marie: Hey Mark, I would love it if you would devote a show to covering scholars' proposals for regulating Facebook and other social media. Here's a link to an interview on PBS Newshour with someone from a Harvard think tank on just that: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/twitter-fb-have-deplatformed-trump-is-it-enough
	6:50pm Passaic River Blues: @Handy: I hear that, absolutely. I think such reforms only have any heft if supported or directed by state interventions (as Hurst is now discussing, via taxation, public funding/incentives, anti-trust, and beefed up regulatory oversight). Self-directed "corporate citizen" stuff is bullshit window-dressing.
	6:52pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Just like Biological / Climate Environmentalism. Without addressing the Corporations' impact - it's not going to work.
	6:52pm B R M: Enjoyed that conversation
	🤖 6:53pm Bas NL: If only consumers would transmute to thinking users...
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: Enjoyed it, too! My hesitations are on record. PRB, I'm not sure that this form of government is really capable of ever imposing those things. I'd like to think it possible ... but even at social-safety-net-iest, we still privileged business and wealth over the commonweal. So ... well, just not very sanguine about the possibilities. The Mondragon style might be a model to follow -- and demand legally that all businesses follow.
	🤖 6:54pm tim from washington: Thanks, Mark! This was a great listen.
	🤖 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: @Sam - I've had a similar idea , which is that the actual social graph would be owned and access to it allowed kind of like HIPAA information, and third parties would have to license it and abide by those privacy rules.
	🤖 6:54pm Ken From Hyde Park: Great show tonight, Mark. Nicely done!
	6:54pm Skillet: “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”
	6:55pm full_english_breakfast: Good interview!
	🤖 6:55pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks David!
	6:56pm Richy4619: TY Mark + David + WFMU
	🤖 6:56pm DjLorraine: Thank you
	6:57pm annie: i have to listen to last week's show.
	6:57pm Little Danny: thank you Mark (and David)!
	6:57pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thanks Mark & David!
	6:57pm Passaic River Blues: @Handy: totally, totally with you. What I outlined requires a massive political realignment/reformation. Thank you, Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark! Thanks, David! A principled stand -- imagine the wonder of it all! This show really provides excellent models when tough choices come up -- personally, professionally. Just remembering to know that ethics are involved in choices that for so many people are merely routine. Anyway, thanks for this! Later on, Techyon Drives!
	6:57pm listener 126464: Thanks Mark, thanks David.
	🤖 6:57pm Handy Haversack: (And thanks, Becky!)
	6:58pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: TY
	6:58pm Sam: Godspeed Captain Shatner!
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:59pm ultradamno: Those snobby pricks at the general store.
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: ...Thanks David Bodanis
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone! Good discussion this evening.

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from October 11, 2021

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